I must say......

[loosecannon]

Ive been getting more into the world of PC gaming recently after I built my new PC. I must say that PC games will always remain the most glitchly things on this planet. Some instances my computer is to blame, but most others are just plain computer defects. Good games though, jsut not when you are about to beat a level and the glitches take their toll.

[Realm]

ok i'm going to have to help richie on the pc defense front. *ahem, here goes nothing*

first of all, consoles have their glitches too, but when they have them, there's much less u can do to fix them. there are multitudes of patches, helps, hints, and bug fixes available online for pc's, in stark comparison to consoles. (and for free too). now i'm not trying to say that pc's are perfect, and consoles suck. not by a long shot. consoles are great, in their place. but pc's have their place as well. consoles are great for party games, sports games, and kiddie adventure games (i.e. zelda, i.e. mario). but nothing beats a pc when it comes to first-person shooters, strategy, and rpg's. it's basic ergonomics. (ergonomics is the science of how things fit with the human body, and comfortably. car companies study this alot) it's the mouse-and-keyboard setup, at a table or desk. i find it funny when ppl rave about game controllers having a lot of buttons. (oh ya! well i've got a whole freaken keyboard!) ya ya, stop screaming the word "haaaaalllloooooooo" at me. halo shmalo. so u've got halo and splinter cell. (xbox is doing something right i guess) there are more kickass fps pc games than i can count. oh, ya, and back to my original subject: pc games aren't that glitchy, it's been blown way out of proportion. everyone's had a problem or two, but most console ppl have as well. oh ya, and don't foget about multiplayer too! pc multiplayer capabilites are lightyears ahead of consoles. so anyway, that's my rant. kudos to richie, he puts up with a lot of shit.

[loosecannon]

Its funny that you think that I am not aware of the many advantages to PC Gaming, I love it. I love the feel of the controls most of all. But, I still stand by my point, where you lost it, that PC games are more glitchy, not because of PC in general, but because game developers have to make the games work for a variety of configs. What video card, sound card, etc. In the end they release a game that works for not just one console, but thosands, unlike the GCN or PS2 where there is only one config to worry about. My point is, PC games are good, better in some cases than console, but they have more faults than zelda.

[BreakmanX]

Wow, interesting debate going on here. I completely agree that PC's have their place, and consoles have their place. Both have their strengths, and their weaknesses. It just comes down to what you want to play.

Calling Zelda and Mario kiddy is where you lost me, though.

consoles are great for party games, sports games, and kiddie adventure games (i.e. zelda, i.e. mario).

Gabe, from Penny Arcade, has spoke out on this many times, and I think he says it best.

But seriously, these guys think that Zelda is a game for kids. Well only KIDS would care that a game looks like it is for kids. It's like when you are 14 and your mom wants to get a picture of you on the merry go round with your little sister but you don't want to get on because it's for kids. Eventually you grow out of that phase and you can appreciate just having fun whether it be on the back of an undulating wooden horse or in front of a cell shaded video game.

Zelda in particular stands out as one of the most polished gaming experiences I've ever had. Let the kids argue in their forums about its "new look" if they want to. They think it looks stupid or corny or whatever and that is to be expected. The fact is, most people don't appreciate art and that is what Zelda is. A group of children giggling in front of a nude painting doesn't mean it's a terrible painting. They simply are not sophisticated enough to appreciate it. It is the same with Zelda. Don't let the idiots dissuade you from picking up this game and enjoying it for what it is, an unparalleled and inspired work of interactive art.

The keyboard and mouse were not designed for gaming, they were adapted for that purpose later on. Whereas the controllers for consoles are designed for one thing, and one thing only; Gaming.

Now, I'm not saying PC's are inferior. Because they are not. They offer an experience that is not found anywhere else. The customization, the thrill of upgrading your hardware, and the way the keyboard and mouse work with certain games is different than any other experience and should not be missed out on.

Dreamcube boy is simply new to PC's and was pointing its faults. Which are there. They are buggy and harder to get to work. That's why the patching system is as advanced as it is. Console games spend more time in development to remove the bugs so patching isn't needed. I have never had a Nintendo made game, for example, crash on me. However, I have had numerous PC games crash on me. Some wouldn't even work until I patched it.

Consoles have their problems too. The hardware becomes outdated, and a whole system overhaul must be done to upgrade to current generation. Although the price of a console seems to be rather close to the best Video Cards of the time... Without the proper TV, console games run at a lower resoultion.

PC games have many strengths as they are multi purpose, have great online functionality, and are seemingly more available.

Anyway, I'm basicially saying that this is an age old argument that will (and should) never be won, because one side is simply not better than the other. We all have our preferances. But, that doesn't stop me from enjoying a game regardless of its platform. And calling a series kiddy, which has many critics' best game of all time in it, just doesn't sit well with me.

[Zephie-chan]

Well, I WOULD add something to this conversation but I think Break and Gabe just said everything relevent. I agree with Break full heartedly in what he's saying and the long debate will and shouldn't ever be finished and resolved.

[Realm]

ok first off, a very nicely written piece there Break, u made ur points probably better than i did. a few bones to pick though:

maybe u haven't, but i have had, and several friends of mine have had, nintendo games crash. i'm not trying to be petty here, just saying that even nintendo isn't above a bug or two.

also, while the Penny Arcade piece was nice, i don't quite agree with their analogies. making a video game isn't art, it's entertainment and it's business. it's like movies, as much as the Academy Awards would have u believe that movies are art, they're not, they're a business. they're entertainment. i don't appreciate the Lion King now years later as ART. it's still just a movie, and it was geared for kids.
(oh and by the way, were u hinting that i'm......immature?!?! god forbid!) lol

right along those same lines: i love mario as much as any other gamer. he's classic, he cool, he's fun, but, u have to admit, he IS aimed more at younger gamers. i can still enjoy it, just as i can still enjoy Disney animated movies. but those movies are still "kiddie" movies. as for zelda, hmmm, well i don't wanna burst ur bubble there Break, but not all reviews of zelda are rosy. i'm really not fond of games with those cell shading graphics, so u'll just have to bear with me. and calling mario and zelda "kiddie games" was just a friendly jab, all in jest, mainly cause i've heard Break rave over zelda so much on the show. let's keep one thing in mind here, we all have different opinions, but we're all gamers, and we're all fans of the Show. plz don't take anything i say the wrong way, we're all pals!

[BreakmanX]

Don't worry, nothing here is taken personal. It is simply a way for all of us gamers to spout off our opinion and have other agree, or disagree.

I'm sure it is possible for GCN games to crash, and nothing is perfect. It just hasn't happened to me yet.

And, actually movies ARE art. I took a class on it last semester at KU. It took it a few years, but film (which includes movies) is an official form of art. We studied all the reasons why that is is an art form, and the process that it became an art form.

It is actually very similar to Video Games, and it has had a tough time. Not too many people accept it as an art form (at least in America,) but it is an art form. Even, officially, in our country.

England has a Video Game exhibit in their modern art section, and Japan actually gives out an award on Video Games. They call it, "interactive art."

I assume that the U.S. will eventually adopt the idea that Video Games are art; since a lot of the world is. We do tend to come in last on these things. But, if you think about it, they really are an art form. The games are designed by artists (mostly, i.e. Shigeru Miyamoto went to art school,) and is really where Video Games started to get their commercial success; when the developers thought of them as art. Professional composers lay out the music for whatever adventure the designer plans. All companies have artists that actually draw out the scenes, which are later recreated in the digital form. The canvas is different, but the art is the same. All that changes is the medium.

Art has always started out as entertainment. But, art can be entertainment as well. Since that is what they started out as, it only makes since that that is the way it is.

I think one of the reasons that Video Games are not considered an art form is because school, at least my school, had the tendancy to portray art as only boring things. Art, it seems, can NOT be fun. And this, I think, is why most people do not think it is an art form.

Games are fun, but they also meet the requirement of art. The dictionary says art is "the conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements in a manner that affects the sense of beauty." To me, games are beautiful, and the artists that made them made the conscious choice to make them that way.

In conclusion, I hope this evokes no hard feelings, as you seem like a very cool guy. For one, you actually had a mature response. On other forums people reply to these types of things with many !!!!!! and in ALL CAPS. I'm simply telling it as I see it, and I hope my perspective is at the least interesting. When it comes down to it; art is something that grabs your heart and won't let go. Something that takes your senses swimming through a sea of magnificence. Something, that calls to you and you just know that it is art. Not everyone can appreciate the same art, but I think Video Games, and all true art forms, should get their respect as such.

[Zephie-chan]

Holy shit... okay, now who the fuck here doesn't think Break should become a poet!? Please, tell me, and I'll kick your ass to change you mind...

Please forgive the foul language but personally I think it was appropiate... seriously... that was beautiful.

[loosecannon]

For your information Break, I am not new to PC games, i just got out of it back when Unreal Tournament was the shit. I got out of games entirely for a year or two, but now the cycle starts again, thats all. I agree with everything said her on this issue. In a way everyone is right. Its amazing how "PC games are glitchy" can turn into "video games area an art form" which is true. Well, it will remain true until we start plugging them into our brains.

[BreakmanX]

Sorry about that dcb, I didn't know you had played many PC games. But, your point remains the same to me.

I use my PC for gaming less than my consoles, but once in a while there is a great game that keeps me in my computer chair. JK2 for example, Unreal Tournament, and Max Payne were all great games.

[kitsune]

but nothing beats a pc when it comes to first-person shooters, strategy, and rpg's. it's basic ergonomics.
pc multiplayer capabilites are lightyears ahead of consoles. so anyway, that's my rant. kudos to richie, he puts up with a lot of shit.

Ok number 1 what kind of ergonomics do you need for a damn rpg? I can't tell if your lcelandic or retarded. Also as far as FPSs consoles i feel are better as you don't have to have a big ol keyboard in your lab and you can work your thumbs like they should be used.

Also as far as multiplayer capabilities tell me one thing that a comp can do that a next gen console can't. I just got back from playing some xbox and it was a mad setup. We could have gotten 16 players going. 8 on 8. Do you know how hard it is to do that on a comp without getting tons of stuff and spending more money and not bogging down the comp with lag.

Really man think before you say a comp is better for gaming then a console. Also you forgot about the types of games like fighting, puzzle, racing, etc. All of these work better on console as they are DESIGNED FOR CONSOLE! The whole bases for consoles is gaming. What as a computer when it was 1st made? A BIG CALCULATOR! Jeez man you also called zelda a kiddy game.

How gay are you on a scale of one to ten? If you said zero i must remind you thats not on the list. And if you said 1 thats pretty gay...mega gay some might suggest.

Also if you don't get these jokes then you have no right to talk about video games.

[Realm]

ok guys, i'm about out of arguments. it was fun though, i really enjoyed it. it's nice to just sit and hash things out with ppl sometimes. i was very impressed and pleased at how civil and mature everyone is. (except for kitsune of course, who had to resort to childish insults, but for the sake of forum peace i'll let that slide) this whole debate has made me a bigger fan of Break's than before. and yes, u might be right about the art thing. art is something that brings out ur creativity, and video games are some of the most creative things out there. thx for putting up with me guys, the debate was fun.

over and out.

[BreakmanX]

No problem. Thanks for listening to my side.