BreakmanX.com

My above statements, where I compared the Xbox to the Mac, were based on Humor. I agree that the Xbox is simply a gaming machine, and that a Mac has many more uses than an Xbox. Not to offend those that run Linux on their Xbox and used it for word processing and other such applications.

Apollo wrote:They did say that the G5 will be up to 3GHz in 12 months

According to Moore’s Law, Pentiums will be running around 4.3GHz in 12 months. And with Hyper threading, these machines will be giving performance closer to 5GHz. Although, clock speed is almost irrelevant to processor performance, especially when comparing different architectures as we are here. I believe that the Macs will still be competitive though; they’d have to be to stay in business.

Apollo wrote:Bull Shi*! there are several video upgrade cards available for any mac made in the last 5 years! just look at the apple store or another on-line apple parts retailer and you'll see that your statement is based on ignorance, not experience.

Yes, it’s true that my comment was based on ignorance. I tried to extrapolate that Macs are hard to upgrade for a comedic affect, but I suppose no dice. It seems the new G5s are somewhat upgradable through firewire and come with not one, not two, but three free PCI slots!

Apollo wrote:macs are very expandable as well because of a little magic port called firewire!

That’s all well and good… except you need an extra transformer for every hard drive you then add… And then you can kiss good-bye a hard drive RAID too –Firewire doesn’t have enough bandwidth nor reliability for external devices needed for a RAID.

Apollo wrote:(and can the opterion even run current 32 bit programs?) and you can't even get a pentium in a dual configuration. what pieces of shit.

Yes, Opteron runs both current 32-bit programs and future 64-bit programs. Unlike Intel’s Itanium processors which only run 64-bit programs. Xeon, which are available in Dual Configurations, are Pentiums. And not to try and stir more shit, but the Opteron is currently available in 1 to 8 processor Configurations. Can the G5 do that? No? To quote you “what pieces of shit.”

Apollo wrote:Macs have better hardware

Not true. A majority of hardware in both a Mac and PC is the same. Any firewire drive that works for a MAC is also going to work for a PC. RAM is the same. Keyboard and mouse are negligible, although, I personally enjoy having more than one button and a scroll wheel. Ethernet is the same. Video Cards are essentially the same, as they are all based off the same chips. So the only real difference is the Motherboards and Processors. Apples testing shows that the G5 is 9834289872 times faster than the Pentium4s, but that testing is Biased and no good. Fair testing needs to be done before fair comments can be made. If anything, there speeds would be comparable.
Also, keep in mind that when you see a statistic like this

• 

With a caption “Testing conducted by Apple in June 2003 using preproduction Power Mac G5 units with application software optimized for the PowerPC G5.”

• 1. The G5 you buy wont be able to achieve scores like that because it doesn’t come with a 128mb ATI Radeon 9800, it only comes with a 9600 Pro (or slower card).
  2. The software (Quake3) is optimized for speed on the G5, and optimized for slow on the P4.

Apollo wrote:helluva lot better OS

Until the update manager prompts you to update and you accidentally rename some important system file to nothing.. Whoops! But seriously, Windows XP serves me well for all my gaming needs. And If I needed a server, I’d defiantly get Linux or even Win2k3 on a 8-processor AMD Opteron system -not Dual G5’s running OSX. Also, PCs have much better games, and a much larger software library.

Apollo wrote:best tech-support in the industry, and better re-sale value than Peecees

I really can’t comment on this, because I don’t really know. I’ve never seen any comparison to say DELL or Gateway on this. I do know that when ever I need tech support for a PC component that the information is usually readily available on the manufactures website, and I don’t need to call them or anything. But that is just circumstantial. Also, I know when I buy a system, re-sale value never crosses my mind - that might be because when I need more speed, I upgrade just select components, instead of the whole system. Then the old parts seem to trickle down into an older PC that my family is using... or go into the pile to start another PC.

Apollo wrote:Keep in mind that a comparable dual Athlon or dual Xeon system costs over $1000 MORE than the dual G5!

• CPU – Xeon 3.0GHz 533FSB - $708 *2 for DUAL = $1416
  Mobo – Xeon - $197
  RAM – PC3700 DDR 1GB - $246
  DVD-Burner ~ Approximately $300
  HDD – EIDE 250GB - $247
  VID – RADEON 9800 Pro Ultimate - $573
  Sound – SB Audigy 5.1 PCI - $67
  Wireless Communications Card ~ Approximately $80
  Total - $3126

These prices are listed from PriceWatch.com and use the latest and greatest Hardware. I couldn’t find the price of a DVD burner, but I know you can pick up a quality drive for around $250. I also had to guess the price for a Wireless Comm. Card (the Mac is AirPort Ready).
The highest Speced G5 costs $2999 [Link]. Mine is only $127 more expensive, but comes with 512mb more ram, 90gb more harddrive, not to mention 5.1 Dolby. The G5 only comes with a ATI Radeon 9600 Pro, so you can save yourself $300 in the Video Card department if you want to downgrade from the 9800 Pro Ultimate. So a comparable Dual Xeon system is significantly cheaper than a new G5 –especially when you consider the exuberantly priced video card I selected and the copiously expensive amount of ram.

Apollo wrote:I'm actually doing something productive with my life!

Because, we all know, you can’t be productive with a PC. Tell me exactly which productivity software is uniquely available on a Mac that isn’t available on a PC (or doesn’t have a PC equivalent)? Dreamweaver and Flash – two widely used Web development suites? Word Processors, Spread Sheets, Database software – there are tons of different versions for both platforms? Photoshop? All Duel platform. Programming Suites (Visual C++, Java Virtual Machine)? 3D Suites (3D studio Max, Maya, etc)? What productivity software is unique for the Mac?

The helluva better OS thing; I'd really like some ellaboration on that. I've heard many a mac user say OSX is the greatest thing since the ipod, but nary a detail spoken. Maybe general statements like, its more secure, its most stable... Yay, but how? What exactly makes it more stable?

Example, Windows XP improves upon Windows 98 because it has a more stable kernel. It uses a 100% 32 bit kernel, where 98 had some 32 portions and some 16 bit, which led to conflicts. It improves upon Windows 2000 by making it more friendly to games, and more friendly to newer hardware by makine a much more substantial plug and play system. And roll back driver support.

OSX has always looked to me like Apple saw Linux and decided they'd make their own version and sell it for a lot of money... In fact, I thought I remembered Linus getting a little riled up about this, until Apple paid him off. I can't remember exactly on that, so dismiss it as anything but food for thought. But, anyway, OSX doesn't look like much but a prettier and more propriatary version of Linux. Then again, both Microsoft and Apple have usually gotten their ideas elsewhere.

On the stability issue... most Mac users seem to feel that OS X is more stable since it's based on a Unix kernel. Of course, everything isn't always sunshine and roses with OS X - here's an article expressing the instability and confusion that can sometimes arise:

http://www.atpm.com/7.05/paradigm.shtml

One example is that Internet Explorer can never be as fast on a Mac as on a comparable Windows XP machine since all of the Microsoft programs are so tightly integrated. Microsoft's recent announcement of the discontinuation of IE for the Mac OS also proves this point. In a way though, this doesn't matter because there are much speedier OS X browser replacements like Safari or Camino (I'm using the latter right now).

How does this apply to games though? This integration between all of a PC system's components and Windows XP makes it easier for games to have DirectX support and work with a variety of systems and video cards.

With that said, are Mac users really missing anything? It's always nice to play games on your computer system, but not if it means constantly upgrading and putting up with buggy games that take six install CD's (*cough* Enter the Matrix *cough*) or buggy games that take three CD's (*cough* Mafia *cough*) or buggy games that take as few as two CD's (*cough* GTA3 *cough*).

I apologize for my violent coughing attack, but one cyclic dilemma still remains. The Mac can't play ported games as well due to the lack of Windows-style integration. In addition, more original Mac games won't be developed until the Mac gains a larger market share. However, the Mac may not gain a larger market share with some demographic groups until more great games are developed for it. It's such a vicious cycle.

masterzukin wrote:or buggy games that take as few as two CD's (*cough* GTA3 *cough*).

Huh? I've owned GTA3 for 6 months now, and I've never had bug problems. I do remember that there was a text bug for some people when the game first came out, but a patch fixed that. What bugs were you referring to?

I had the GTA3 text bug when it came out (which I soon patched) and had frequent crashes under Windows ME (this was primarily due to the fact that I had a corrupted hard drive... and that Windows ME is a much less stable OS than XP). When I replaced my hard drive and installed XP though, the game wouldn't run at all and I eventually gave up on it. All of my difficulties kind of illustrate the fact that PC or Mac gaming can be more problematic and frustrating than using consoles. However, it also has the potential to be much more graphically rewarding and I'm willing to give it another try when Deus Ex 2 comes out.

I'm not going to quote specific posts, but here is a general reply based upon what I've seen in the last few posts by the people arguing for the PC.

My first question is, how much will an 8-processor opterion run you? Configure that system and get back with me 'cause (all PC bashing aside) I'd really like to know.

Secondly, when I said that Pentiums can't be dual processors, I was referring to the P4. I know full well that xeons run in dual configurations.

thirdly, you (evil pirate) configured a nice system there for $3126. Granted that you left out some key components (case, fans, heat-sink, power supply, etc. and all of these things are minor costs) but if you bought all of these components at these dirt-cheap prices, wouldn't you be running a greater risk that something probably wouldn't work together? What if the MoBo doesn't have slots for all your cards? What if your case doesn't have adequate ventilation? What about firmware issues and hardware incompatibility? You don't have to worry about any of these things when you buy a Mac. And even if you manage to get everything up and working, the power Mac G5 still has you beat on system architecture and I/O. And the Mac just works. there's no need to figure out if my power supply will power all of my components or if my fans will adequately cool my processors. Buying a Mac is like buying a 2003 Mercedes S600. what your talking about is like building a hotrod from a '98 Honda civic. Macs have been proven to last longer than PC's. the hardware isn't the same as you contend. Only the HDD and maybe the DVD burner are the same. Everything else is made for the Mac and would be incompatible with an IBM/pc machine.

Earlier in your post you mentioned Moore's law and MHz jumps. While I do not doubt that the Pentium 4 / Prescott/ or whatever Intel has in one year will be around 4.3Ghz. I still believe that because Apple controls both the hardware and operating system, the Apple systems will run better and more fluidly than the XP systems, just as they do today. If you have not used a G4 or dual G4 with Mac OS 10.2 for more than a week, then I bet that you don't know what I mean. The whole experience of using a mac and using OS X is just easier and less stressful than using a windows machine. I've used windows XP and I hate it.

you also railed against firewire hard drives. You're wrong in saying you need an extra transformer to run it. firewire hard drives work seamlessly and effortlessly on Macs, maybe its different on PCs, I don't know. Your also wrong about firewire RAID setups. there are many companies which sell RAID equipment and hard drives that use firewire alone as the interface for your computer. Or, if you don't want to invest in RAID hardware, OS X's disk utility makes setting up a software RAID (be it firewire, internal, or SCSI) as easy as clicking and dragging. (again, you would actually have to use a Mac to know what I'm talking about.) On another note, Firewire carries up to 45 Watts of power and one firewire port on your mac can connect up to 63 devices through a daisy-chain. (I often have my external HDD and my iPod connected to a single firewire port on my Mac and the mac powers both and sends/recieves data from both at really fast speeds) USB 2.0 only carries 2.5 Watts of power.

About tech support, I can tell you than from personal experience and from reading reviews from Cnet and other sources as well as stories from other Mac users that the Mac tech support is the best there is. There's no runaround with an automated system. Your connected and talking to a real person within 5 minutes, usually quicker. Diagnosing the problem is simple (at least it always has been for me. even though I've only had to call mac tech support 4 times in the last two-and-a-half years.) and the tech support people make sure that you hang-up satisfied, either through fixing your problem or by replacing the damaged/faulty equipment. If the computer or component does need to be replaced, then apple always sends the replacement over-night. There's just no hassle or frustration involved.

Random last notes: you can get the Radeon 9800 on the power Mac G5. The G5 sound card which gives you both analog audio in/out AND digital-optical In and Out does deliver 5.1 surround sound. You just have to have 5.1 speakers which will do the decoding (like the Logitech Z-680 speakers available from the apple store). You also asked which productivity tools are available only on the Mac? Well, for pro apps there is Final Cut pro and DVD studio pro. (both of which I use. and I've used their PC counterparts, and i know that they do not hold a candle to these apps.) Photoshop works 2X as fast on a Mac. iPhoto and iTunes are both amazing FREE programs which have no PC equal. Safari is an awesome and incredibly fast web browser. Apple’s Mail program is the best of any e-mail client I’ve seen for tagging and handling junk mail. And the new version coming in Panther (OS 10.3) handles e-mails in threads as well as possessing some other cool features. And then there’s iChat. You wouldn’t believe what iChat AV can do. I think the only way you can get a taste of how great OSX, iChat AV, and the G5 are is by looking at the video I’ve linked to below. To not watch it would be like burying your head in the sand.

http://www.apple.com/quicktime/qtv/wwdc03/
also check out these PDF document for more information:
PDF #1
, PDF #2
and finally PDF #3

whew, thats the end of it. feel free to unleash your barrage of flaming xeon arrows whenever conveniant.

for anyone that hasn't seen the RedvsBlue Apple Switch video, i'd highly suggest you watch it, if for nothing else than the comedy. go here to get it

(maybe it'll relieve a little of the tension on this tread)
(or maybe it'll just piss Apollo off again )

I already posted that on this thread, but I'm glad I'm not the only fan of that video.

ha, oops. must have missed it

No worries, it is most worthy of a double post.

Evilmagicpirate wrote:... the Opteron is currently available in 1 to 8 processor Configurations. ...

...Apples testing shows that the G5 is 9834289872 times faster than the Pentium4s, but that testing is Biased and no good. Fair testing needs to be done before fair comments can be made. If anything, there speeds would be comparable.

The tests conducted were tested by an independant lab (VeriTest) and, through my own research, I have found that they are the EXACT same tests conducted by AMD when they tested the multi-processor opteron systems. (the tests were SPECint_rate2000 and SPECfp_rate2000 int=integer calculations fp=floating point calculations) The tests were not biased. The G5 creamed the dual 3.0GHz xeons and the 3.06GHz pentiums. The only test in which the pentium or xeon even held a candle was in the SINGLE processor integer test. In that test, apple's G5 was only 10% slower than the single Intel processors. Yet you Yell "Hyper-threading! Hyper-threading! Hyper-threading will avenge us!" Even after Apple says that That they DID conduct these tests and that the intel processors actually came out slower in these tests with hyper-threading enabled!

And for hardware, going back to that $3126 pile-o-parts that the pirate put together. several inequalities jump out with the G5 and that system. The first, most obvious one which i already pointed out is that, with the xeon pile-o-parts your mother board is not designed like the apple mother board is. the apple MoBo has independant 1GHz bi-directional busses running from the processors to the system controller. Thats 16GBps of bandwidth... more than 2x the 6.4GBps of a P4. Thats just one example of the architecture differences that make the G5 a superior machine. You can check out the other architecture differences at the apple website. But this is just recapping. I've already mentioned this in an earlier post. The reason why I'm posting about harware is that, I'm wondering, will that $200 mobo from your bargain store support the ram that you bought? Will it support an 8x AGP pro card? or jus 8x AGP? 'cause it would suck if you bought a pro card then had to return it b/c your bargain basement mobo didn't suppot the pro spec like the G5 does.
o.k. enough about the pile-o-parts. I've beat that dead horse enough. It's established that the dual 2GHZ G5 is the best system for the money on the market, Bar-none.

now, lets talk about the AMD Opteron. Its true that the Opteron is a 64bit processor, albeit a processor designed for servers and workstations and that you can build a super-computer with upto 8 of these processors in it. but, as I went looking for a system like this to configure (and after I found one) I came across some interesting things. First, I found that the Fastest opteron processor only runs at 1.8GHz, 200MHz slower than the G5. Secondly, as I configured a dual opteron system I found that the only video card I could get was an 8MB soldered-on chip. only 8MB of video-ram! (doesn't sound like it could run doom 3 or half-life 2 very well to me.) I also found that the ram used on the opteron system (PC 2700) is actually SLOWER than the Ram on a G5 (PC 3200). Thirdly, I found that the opteron uses hyper-transport technology on the mobo, the same interchip technology used by apple! The G5 uses 133MHz PCI-X slots, the same used in the opteron! (xeons and P4s run the ordinary 33MHz PCI slots) Also, I found that an opteron mobo only has a 333MHz front side bus and it costs over $400! On top of that, the opteron only runs on a version of linux made specifically for the opteron chip! now, I'll admit that any flavor of Linux is better than XP, but last time I checked there were fewer games for linux than there were for mac. And whats the price of the opteron system? Well, to be honest i don't know. on the manufacturers website where I found and configured the system, I have to submit the system configuration to an engineer with my phone number to even get a quote! and , quite frankly, I don't want to have an engineer calling me just to tell me the price on a system I'm not seriously considering buying and which won't run any of my programs or games.

now, as I said at the beginning of this thread, since the G5 has the PC market beat in every area (except number of games on the market) and is better for every home user who isn't obsessed with computer gaming, you can have your P4 hyper-threaded, GeForce FX5900 ultra powered games, and I'll take the G5 with an xbox. that'll suit my needs just fine.

Apollo, I’ve been working on a rebuttal for you.. But I don’t have much time to use my computer and internet right now because I have some house guests and I to play the tour-guide / gracious host for them. Also, I just moved house this week and the DSL isn’t connected up just yet.. But rest assured I’m working on another long one . Should have it up by tommorow morning for you.
Cheers, EMP.

well good. bring it on.
But did you look at the PDF files or the movie I linked to? Research my source documents (those PDFs and movie) and THEN write your reply. After all, both of us want to be as educated as possible about the competing platforms. If you hae any good info to pass along about the top of the line PC, let me see it.

While exploring the Apple website, I came across the performance section of its Power Mac G5 page. Some of the statistics were against PC, but more were simply Apple and its semi-false advertising. Allow me to explain:



Anyone who knows the history of Adobe is optimized for Apple. Which is good for Apple users, of course, but dosent count for much to me.



OK, great, it does sequence matching. Whoopdefuckingdo. I have never, I do not currently, and I do not plan on doing any gene sequence matching on my home computer. That said, this benchmark is pretty pointless to me, and just about every other gamer I know.



Might cram everything into the average PC case? OK, lets keep count, shall we?

PCI slots:
Average PC - 5
Mac - 3 (has anyone besides me never heard of PCI-X?)

5 1/4" drive bays:
Average PC - 4
Mac - 1

3 1/2" drive bays:
Average PC - 3
Mac - 2



Why in the wide fucking world would anyone need 8 gigabytes of RAM? PC's may only be able to address 4 gigs, but I have a hard time coming up with any use for that ammount of RAM, short of "storing entire 3D worlds" and gene sequencing. Again, another useless statistic for most people.

All of the above was aimed at no one in particular, just pointing out why I usually discount any Apple advertising, information, or statistics.

In response to Apollo, the $200 mobo EMP bought from a "bargain basement" company, I can almost certainly promise you that any $200 mobo will support both the type of RAM he bought and 8X AGP (unless EMP dosent know shit about computer building, which, so far, I have no reason to suspect). Besides which, all the tests I've read indicate that 8X AGP is pretty useless. It's performance boost is next to nothing, and usually makes games and programs more unstable.

Out of fairness, I will admit that the G5 does indeed have a superior bus system, and I'll also hand it to Apple for offering aluminum cases as standard.

I, uh, went to the Apple school of advertising.