READ ME!

RurouniQ · Post by **RurouniQ** » Tue Sep 16, 2003 10:45 am

So now, if you play any game that could possibly use Live at all, even if you don't subscribe to Live, Microsoft updates your Xbox without even asking you permission or giving you the opportunity to say no, making it impossible to install Linux. I'm not sure if it prevents you from running Linux, but in either case, that's pretty lame. And on top of that, when it updates, it deletes other files you've stored on your hard disk. Now, the article I read is a little ambiguous; it says that "some" of his files were deleted, not "all". So I'm not sure exactly what's going on here, but in the meantime, until I know just what I need to do to get around this, I have to hold off my Xbox purchase so that I don't throw away money on a modchip. Damn you Microsoft, you almost had a customer, but then you went and blew it by wrecking the best thing you had going for your console. Way to go.

Post by **BreakmanX** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 1:06 am

Why the fuck would you want to install linux, anyway? Live is one of the best things about the box, and you can't get on live if you do linux. And why would you mod your system?

That's like saying you won't buy a toaster (hehe) because you heard when you throw it in a bathtub it will kill someone. If you don't use it for its intended use, Im sorry, but its your own damn fault.

Jack Burton · Post by **Jack Burton** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 1:20 am

I read that article this morning...it was on a Linux on Xbox site. Let me just tell you this:

After reading the entire article (which I will hunt down and find) I have determined two things: If you're going to mod an xbox, don't install Xbox Live on it, and, if you're going to complain about something microsoft related, make sure you're not doing anything illegal to their stuff in the first place.

But anyways...here's the jist of this story:

This guy has modded his xbox with mechassault...so he can put linux on it (stupid move #1).

Then, the guy gets all his modded software on there, including another version of the bios, which has the xbox live tab on the dashboard (stupid move #2).

So then the guy proceeds to "accidentally" hit a button while the Xbox live tab is highlighted on the dashboard, and the thing updates his system automatically (stupid move #3).

I say accidentally, because the guy probably wanted to see if he really could get his modded xbox on Xbox live. What a moron.

The guy then argues that he never signed the EULA and that even if he did, it doesn't pertain to him b/c he's in Europe. That's BS. Everyone that signs up for Xbox Live, agrees to the EULA, including people in Europe, and I'm pretty sure there's a EULA for the xbox as well, even for Europeans.

Basically, it boils down to this, this guy is a moron, he complained because he's a moron, and no one is going to give a shit, the I-can't-get-laid-anti-microsoft people of the world.

I'll post the article as soon as I track it down on IGN's boards...wish me luck...that's a lot of trudging.

-Jack

Jack Burton · Post by **Jack Burton** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 1:32 am

Found it!

Stupid moron's story

LOL...a great read...lol...what a loser...

A few more things I can point out at this point, after reading it again...

1) Mechassault does not automatically update your dashboard, fuckstick did it himself.

2) To get to the pinging utilities he describes, one HAS to agree to the EULA in xbox live, anyone here that has Xbox Live can attest to that.

3) Once a person is signed up for xbox live, they agree that Microsoft has the right to do update the xbox remotely, as was the case with the recent Live 2.0 update (which i haven't seen a single person complaining about, minus this guy).

4) The fact that he had two drives on this xbox is yet another point of him modding it, so that he has no right to say "OMG!!11!1 My E drive is gone and my C drive has a whole bunch of stuff missing from it!"

No shit. You had software on there that wasn't supposed to be on there, and you were messing with the hardware as well. Serves you right, dipstick.

Please, help me in showing this idiot for what he really is.

-Jack

Post by **BreakmanX** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 1:36 am

I learned a new word over at Penny-Arcade this week, and this seems like a prime opportunity to use it.

What a fucksaw.

RurouniQ · Post by **RurouniQ** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:21 am

Wow, you guys are being overly hard on this guy.
Why would I want to install Linux on an Xbox? Because with a modchip, it is possible to do both. One of the main reasons I'm looking forward to getting a modded Xbox is so I can watch anime divx files on my TV, and it would be a hell of a lot easier just to download them off the net (via BitTorrent) directly to the Xbox instead of having to download them to my computer and then transfer them to the Box via FTP. Since it is possible to do so, why not?
Now, for one, I'm not seeing where "fuckstick" updated himself. But the main sticking point on this one isn't the fact that it updated automatically (although I can see where a lot of Linux fans would be upset and overly pissy about this), it's the fact that MS deleted some of his data. Technically, Microsoft does not have the right to alter or delete this man's data; once he has put it on his Xbox, it is his data, he has paid for the hardware, it is his property, and they deleted it. This does potentially violate certain German laws that prohibit the alteration of another's data. Yeah, they're German laws, but they're doing this to Xboxes in Germany too, and after this, I wouldn't be surprised if the entire EU picks up on these laws, and possibly the US as well.

kitsune · Post by **kitsune** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 1:03 pm

i really doubt that q, lets face the facts. this guy is a moron. you said that microsoft is in the wrong here, but what about this guy. i talked to jack and he said that he got it live illegally. and if he didn't want stuff to come in from microsoft then the moron shouldn't have turned on live. its his fault. and these files that were delated could be anything. purhaps files of preference that were outdated by the update or something. i think this guy is ranting about nothing. face it by modding his xbox he himself is doing somehting microsoft didn't want him to do. did he ask them if he could? no. so he was just getting a big bite in the ass from kharma.

Jack Burton · Post by **Jack Burton** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 1:25 pm

Basically, the whole thing here is, that xbox live was doing what it was supposed to do when he "accidentally" logged in to XBL. Xbox Live authenticates everything on their network, and if your shit doesn't match everyone else's shit, then say "bye, bye" to it, because Xbox Live is programmed to delete it. Read the EULA in Xbox live about it, and there's also one in the xbox dashboard as well, that says that MS has the right do delete files that are not Microsoft authenticated. And yeah, you do have to agree to the EULA before you get into the network setup in XBL, so this guy is just being a douche, AND there is a separate, specific EULA for the EU as well, so this guy's story is complete and total bunk.

-Jack

Padrino · Post by **Padrino** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 1:51 pm

Anyone "smart" enough to know about using a "bootloader" should be aware that hooking up an modded Xbox without disabling or modding the network code is just plain stupid. Booting from another OS is modding the Xbox software becuase all Xbox discs have code to prevent any unauthorized access and the "bootloader" is used to get around this and is "modding" the software. MS has been very plain about not allowing modded Xbox to use the live service and the preventative mesures it would take. Using this "bootloader" is no diffrent than changing out the BIOS of the Xbox and getting around the Xbox's copywrite protection.

Here's the deal. If the network is set up, the original Xbox Live code will attempt to connent to the mother ship and disable illegal Xbox. If you are going to use any technique to modify the xbox (Hardware or Software):

1) Don't hook it up to the internet
2) Get into the BIOS/OS and disable Xbox Live code and/or change the NIC.

-- If you did not know enough to do 1 or 2 then --

1) Don't mod your Xbox

I'm not sure how covert MS will get about installing this code but as I said they have not tried to hide the facts. You mod, you take chances, its that simple. You want a legal Media TV set-top box ... make it yourself.

From the article:

I am a legitimate Xbox owner. I have fully paid the price for it

Yes, you did

Also, what really happened it this....

1) Guy thought he could out-smart MS by using a bootloader instead of a mod chip.

2) Installed Linux and changed the C: contents (how is that not modding?)

3) Thought he got away with it clean and decided to see if Live still worked or if he could play live in the future (Whoops)

4) Got burned...

Post by **BreakmanX** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 6:39 pm

EULA's are legally binding contracts, and are actually more powerful than the law. This guy signed it but accepting it, and with it everything it says. So, his data argument is compleletey worthless, because of said document.

The reason Xbox live gets rid of files like that is to prevent cheating. Im really glad it does it too, I mean look at Socom online.

RurouniQ · Post by **RurouniQ** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 8:09 pm

What, is it not possible for someone running Linux on an Xbox to make an honest mistake? You guys aren't even giving him a chance. If all this happened to me (which is likely, given how often I make little mistakes like clicking on the Live button) and I wrote an open letter like his, would you all call me a liar?
In either case, no matter what the circumstances are, Microsoft's actions are morally questionable. And are you sure the EULA is more legally binding than that data sabotage law in Germany? Companies have been prosecuted on it before.
Now here's another question: If I installed a switchable modchip on my Xbox so that I could run Live and Linux on the same Xbox, but not at the same time, and I had divx files stored on my hard drive, what if MS deleted them? Would MS be "justified" then?

Zukin · Post by **Zukin** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 8:40 pm

It's interesting what this guy is trying to do, but it also has the potential to totally blow up in his face. I mean, it's nice that he has the chutzpah to try something new and test the boundaries of system hacking, but all issues of legality aside, putting Linux on the Xbox is just not the most elegant solution for anything.

While having an Xbox right there saves the user the trouble of building a new system, a PC system of comparable speed can be had for less. As a matter of fact, over the summer I built a new computer to have around as a backup system, and to try out Linux on. This system only cost $134. It has about the same specs as the Xbox ie. 733 mhz processor with 64 MB of RAM and a 4.2 GB hard drive. Throw in a basic DVD-ROM drive and a larger hard drive, and you're standing at about the price of an Xbox. Granted, the graphics power of this computer system isn't nearly as good as an Xbox, but Linux isn't really an OS for gaming (besides hosting games as a server).

Several issues:
* Networking - Linux runs on about anything, so if you want to run a server, why not pick up a computer at the Salvation Army and install Linux on it? It's a lot cheaper than an Xbox, and your money goes to a good cause too!

*Watching Divx files - while it may be cool to be the first kid on the block to haxx0r your Boxx, a much cheaper solution is to just install a TV out card in your PC.

I applaud the guy's efforts for trying something new and trying to question authority, but there's many better solutions out there, many of which won't make you worry about messing up what's inside of your Xbox. Just think of advice like this as the Xbox Eye for the Linux Guy (Every Tuesday on Bravo!)

Post by **BreakmanX** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 10:53 pm

I'm not an expert in German law, but in America any contracts (like EULA) are higher than the constitution. That's what a contract is, basically signing away things, which may include rights.

If not, isn't the guy morally questionable? For lieing? He did sign an agreement, regardless, and then broke his word. So, I'd say he would be a bit morally questionable as well.

And, the intention of the file deleting is to prevent cheating on Live. Which makes perfect sense, but only when you think about it. If this didn't happen, it would be so easy for anyone to cheat. I think its a great idea, and I'm completely behind it.

When people use their things for unintended purposes, whatever happens to them is completely their fault. If someone thinks a bathtub might be a fun way to wash a toaster, but also 'accidentally' wants to make toast, is the toaster company morally liable for killing the person? No, because they used it the device in the wrong way.

And, what companies have been prosecuted on the data sabatoge law after signing a contract, and then intentionally breaking the contract; which resulted in the data loss?

Oh, and nice post zukin. A cheap PC would be a much better solution to this. Er, hell, maybe Q knows of some Mac solution that would be similar in price?

RurouniQ · Post by **RurouniQ** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 11:23 pm

BreakmanX wrote:Er, hell, maybe Q knows of some Mac solution that would be similar in price?

That was unnecessary.

Zukin · Post by **Zukin** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 11:42 pm

Surprisingly, old Macs can do a lot of useful things (and for a low price) - I've heard of people running functional servers on Mac Classics, and early G3s had great TV out capabilities. There's usually multiple ways to accomplish any task... and a lot cheaper if you look hard enough.